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Will Deatherage: Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Barefoot Lawyer Reports on China. My name is Will Deatherage, the producer, and joining me as always is Chen Guangcheng.
Chen Guangcheng: Hello, everyone. I’m glad to see you here again.
W: Today we’re covering a topic that we’ve talked about in the past from Communist China, which has to do with the Communist Party’s role in appointing bishops in the Catholic Church. Most recently, there’s a diocese of Xinjiang whose bishop, Joseph Zhang Weiju, has been in custody by the Communist Party for a while, and the Communist Party recently announced his replacement. And some of our listeners might be wondering how that is, or why is it that the Communist Party can determine who the bishop is.
And today, Guangcheng is going to explain to us the agreement that the Vatican’s had with the Communist Party. Guangcheng, can you explain what’s going on between the Vatican and China with appointing bishops?
G: Yeah, that was several years ago in 2018. And, you know, the Vatican signed an agreement with the CCP, and they all agreed, you know, [that] the CCP had to give the name list from mainland China to the Vatican to let the Pope decide who will become the bishops in mainland China.
W: Gotcha.
G: Yeah, but one or two years later, the CCP changed the law about Christians, and said, “We will decide by ourselves in mainland China anything about Christians.” So the CCP ignored the agreement. And I got some information from Fujian, Guangdong, and Zhejiang Provinces, even Guangxi Province. You know, a lot of Catholic people are unhappy. The Vatican gave the rights to appoint bishops to the CCP.
Since seven years ago, the CCP has controlled power [over] who will become the bishops in mainland China. In the Vatican, they understand that the CCP never wanted to honor the agreement, but they didn’t know how to solve the problem.
And another thing is, they influence the people there, too. You know, the CCP used some benefit to influence the Vatican.
W: How did they do that, Guangcheng? What does the Vatican get from the Communist Party? How do they influence the Vatican?
G: So, the CCP gives them opportunities. For example, [they] invite the cardinals to visit mainland China. And [when] they arrive in mainland China, they will give them looks like they are very respected, and make them feel very good. And they will give them the opportunity to give a speech.
The CCP used some companies to pay the speech fee and help them print some books. Of course, if you want to print a book in mainland China, you have to delete all the parts that criticize the CCP or criticize the CCP’s policy.
Right, so more and more, more and more, [the CCP’s] influence is very deep. I remember Cardinal Zen flew from Hong Kong to the Vatican to try to meet the pope to talk about the CCP’s persecution in mainland China.
W: This is back with Pope Francis, right?
G: Yeah, Pope Francis, yeah. But I don’t understand why Pope Francis refused to meet him. He was waiting in the hotel for more than three days, then he had to fly back to Hong Kong. I don’t know why. You know he’s a cardinal, right? I don’t know why Pope Francis didn’t want to meet him. You know, he lives in Hong Kong. He understands a lot about the CCP’s ideas and what the CCP did there. If he really wanted to understand how evil the CCP [is], he should’ve talked with anyone from Hong Kong, but not so. Now, the new pope…
W: Yeah, Pope Leo.
G: Yeah, Pope Leo. I hope Pope Leo will change the policy between the Vatican and the CCP.
W: Yeah. Guangcheng, if you could give advice to Pope Leo, what would it be? What do you think you would recommend him to do with the Church in China?
G: I would say please support the Catholic people in China, and please keep the rights to appoint bishops and support them to get their rights. And please, learn from Pope John Paul II to stand with Chinese people to change the CCP’s party-state system.
W: So, Guangcheng, what did John Paul II do? He’s very famous for helping tear down communism in the Soviet Union.
G: Yeah. I hope the new pope works hard to tear down the CCP in mainland China. If the communist authoritarians were torn down by him, all the communist countries would change.
W: Yeah, so Guangcheng, you know, some people say that part of Pope Francis’ diplomacy was to try and make friends with all the governments that they could. What do… you know, why do you think that strategy didn’t work with the CCP?
G: That was not just the Vatican; all the Western countries tried to make a good relationship with the CCP. No one is successful. So, I think in the future, we should not spend a moment to try to make a good relationship with the devil.
We just need to think [about] how we can join hands to tear down the CCP, to throw tyranny into the ash heap of history. That’s the only way we can resolve the communist problem across the whole world.
W: What advice would you give to Catholics living in China? You know, if anyone ever heard your podcast there, what would you tell them?
G: Yeah, I think the people who live in mainland China, the Catholic people: You should keep going to learn from the Bible. Of course, the CCP made the evil law to try to use that to persecute them. The Catholic people in mainland China should think about how to oppose the persecution. There are a lot of house churches in mainland China in different provinces. Of course, sometimes the CCP attacks the house churches, but only around 20 to 30% were torn down by the CCP.
W: Okay, I see.
G: Yeah, if you agree to go to the CCP’s church – you know, we call it 3C church, right? If you go there, the CCP has installed cameras there, and they’re recording everything you say. So that is not real church. The CCP just wants to use that place to do censorship. So I think we should refuse to do that if we can.
W: So only the house churches are safe then, right?
G: I think the house churches are. That is a free place.
W: Well, we’ll continue following up on this story, especially as we see how Pope Leo XIV responds to the Communist Party. Each pope’s strategy is a little bit different. Guangcheng, thank you so much for sharing this information with us today.
G: Thank you, Will. Thank you, everyone. See you next time.
W: The Catholic University of America’s Center for Human Rights has published a documentary on the United Nations Universal Declaration on Human Rights. The documentary features world class human rights experts from former State Department officials to ambassadors and human rights activists. It can be found on our website at humanrights.catholic.edu.