You are listening to part one of the barefoot lawyer reports, two part special on the Tiananmen Square massacre.

Bill Saunders: So welcome to this podcast of the Barefoot lawyer reports. We’re going to talk today about Tiananmen Square. And many of you listening may not know anything about Tiananmen Square. You may have heard it mentioned, but not understand the significance it has or the facts and circumstances that surround it. But it’s the kind of key moment in the struggle for democracy in China under the CCP.

Guangcheng and I are glad today to welcome Wang Dan, who was the student leader at Tiananmen Square. So I would like to start first. Let’s assume the person listening doesn’t know anything about Tiananmen Square. So, first, what is Tiananmen Square? Physically? It’s a square in Beijing.

 

Wang Dan: Yeah, it’s a pretty big square in Beijing. Established in 1949 to celebrate that CCP is taking power from coming down.

 

Bill Saunders: So tell us. So, in 1989, in May, the Tiananmen Square protests started, right?

 

Wang Dan: Yep.

 

Bill Saunders: Tell us about it. Why did they start? What were they trying to do?

 

Wang Dan: Well, throughout the 1980s, the CCP started so-called economic reform. But one of the consequences is corruption in the late 1980s. And students feel angry about the corruption. So we’ve been planning this for a long time, for at least one or two years, to protest the corruption. But one thing happened accidentally: April 15, 1989, the former general secretary of CCP, Hu Yaobang, died. He’s not a supporter, but he’s a pretty open minded leader.

 

Bill Saunders: Open minded, yeah.

 

Wang Dan: So we think his passing away will be harmful for further political reform. That’s why we went to Tiananmen square to protest and try to speak up for our willingness to promote.

 

Bill Saunders: So after his death, that sparked protests to support democratic reforms and economic reforms.

 

Wang Dan: For the first stage, we went to the street. Just to show our respect for Hu Yaobang. But the movement quickly transferred to political protest.

 

Bill Saunders: I can tell you here in the United States, for those people who were following what was going on in China, Hu Yaobang was, we put a lot of hope in him as well, so we were very sad to see that he passed. 

So you wanted to show respect for him. And student, was it- was it students to begin with, who gathered in Tiananmen square? Was it a broad number of different kinds of people?

 

Wang Dan: There were different groups.

 

Bill Saunders: It was what? Different groups?

 

Wang Dan: Yes, from different universities. They didn’t call each other, but they all went to Tiananmen Square to show respect.

 

Bill Saunders: Uh-huh.

 

Wang Dan: Students started this movement.

 

Bill Saunders: So it’s pretty spontaneous.

 

Wang Dan: Yeah.

 

Bill Saunders: Uh-huh. Okay, well, what happened? So that was on May 4 or so.

 

Wang Dan: Well, Hu Yaobang died April 15. The first stage is what I call a memorial stage. We will just show up at the memorial. We show our respect for Hu Yaobang. But a very important turning point was April 26.

 

Bill Saunders: Uh-huh.

 

Wang Dan: April 26, the CCP issued an editorial for people daily, accusing students of being bad guys, trying to destroy China, and a lot of other accusations.

Bill Saunders:  Uh-huh.

 

Wang Dan: And that made students angry. So April 27, there’s a huge demonstration in Beijing city. And that’s very important. This April 27 demonstration. And then we have May 4, another demonstration.

 

Bill Saunders: So, what sparked that editorial that condemned the memorial?

 

Wang Dan: We think we are just patriotic. We went too straight. Because we love this country. We hope the country can be democratic.

 

Bill Saunders: Uh-huh.

 

Wang Dan: But according to the editorial, we were influenced by Americans, by western values, and tried to destroy the foundation of so-called Marxism, Leninism, Muslims or something like that. And we wanted to destroy the whole institution of CCP’s rule. But, of course, that’s not true. And it made us angry.

 

Bill Saunders: You were trying to uphold kind of democratic values and human rights, but you weren’t trying to destroy the government. Is that correct?

 

Wang Dan: No, we were not. We’re actually trying to support the government and promote them to do more reform.

 

Bill Saunders: Okay.

 

Wang Dan: That’s our intention.

Bill Saunders: Okay. Guangcheng, do you want to say anything at this point?

 

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah, I think I want to talk a little about it. At that time. I wasn’t going to school. I was just staying in a village in rural china. In fact, I know a lot of the farmers in rural China, they support students. They talk a lot about this. They said, oh, the Communist party is very bad now. So should we change the political situation now? Yeah, yeah, a lot. In fact, more than 90% wanted to support the students in Tiananmen square at that time. 

 

Bill Saunders: 90% of the farmers?

 

Guangcheng Chen: Yes. And you know, the weather became hotter and hotter. They sat together outside the village and talked about that. That time the students asked Li Peng to have a dialogue. A lot of people use the radio, or tv to know the news about Beijing. So, yeah, I think that is righteous. A lot of people support them. But later, you know, the farmer feels very sad about that. But of course, after that, no one knew the news. The Communist Party censored all the information about Tiananmen square from radio, tv, etc. No news, only propaganda.

 

Bill Saunders: Well, let’s- I want to kind of take it in sequence. Was the communist party censoring the news? When did they start to censor the news about Tiananmen Square? Did they censor the news in April, you know, after that editorial? When did they stop other people in China from learning what was going on?

 

Wang Dan: At the very beginning, they tried to censor the news and try to cover what happened in Beijing. But, quickly, the political atmosphere changed because we had a leader called Zhao Ziyang at that time, who passed three years ago, and he asked the government to open, for the news, to let people know the students slogans and the student’s requests. So the censorship disappeared. That’s why almost the whole country knows what we are doing in Beijing and what we want.

 

Bill Saunders: So, I mean, the protests or the demonstration, grew and grew over the days, and many more people. So it was not just students at some point, many other people.

 

Wang Dan: At the earliest stage, only students. We have a demonstration, established organizations. But gradually, other people participate. For example, intellectuals, journalists and finally, we have some workers, and even for some farmers trying to participate, we got a lot of letters from all over the country to show their support. But intellectual support is very important, a key, key role. They played a key role in this moment.

 

Bill Saunders: So, how did you see it unfold, I mean, from your perspective? So you were there. so it started off with students. other people are joining. Intellectuals, Some workers, some farmers, some professionals. So how did the pro, tell us about how it proceeded from the very first, how did it develop? I mean, from your perspective.

 

Wang Dan: That time, we didn’t have cell phones or anything. It’s very difficult for us to summon more support. but the news spread very fast.

 

Bill Saunders: Spread very fast.

 

Wang Dan: Very fast. We use the telephone. We call our friends, colleagues, other universities outside Beijing, and those intellectuals, like our professors, use telephones or even fax machines.

 

Bill Saunders: It is for those listening. The cell phones in America were pretty widespread by the year 2000, but there were no cell phones in 1989. So this is all being done by phones. Was called a fax machine at the time. I don’t even think they have them anymore. But you could send a letter kind of electronically, send a piece of paper, the image electronically. So it was hard to get the word out, but it got out.

 

Wang Dan: Yeah, we just took bicycles, and tried to go to other schools. Yeah, basically it’s very busy communicating.

 

Bill Saunders: So that started to bring more people in. But how were the authorities, I mean, has it continued to grow? I mean, my understanding is at some point it could have gotten as large as a million people. How did it, as it grew, just take us through, from late April until all through may, it was growing. How, tell us what the authorities were doing and what was going on.

 

Wang Dan: Very quickly, a split happened inside the party. One part of them was represented by Zhao Ziyang, the former general secretary. They think they have to use tools like democracy and rule by law to resolve the problem, and try to converse with us, with students. That’s their policy. But there’s another faction inside the party represented by the Premier minister Li Peng. They are hardliners. They think we must crack down the protest because they have very bad intentions. They are bad guys. So there was a struggle inside the party and finally it was decided by Deng Xiaoping, the true emperor at that time.

 

Bill Saunders: Guangcheng, do you want to say something?

 

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah, I want to mention more about the phone situation. I heard some information from an official in the US government- at that time she worked in the State department. I remember last year she told me that before the Communist party tried to crack down Tiananmen Square, they cut the phone lines first in the US embassy. They did this test to see what would happen, if the Americans would stand up. If the response is very strong, maybe the Communist party will stop. But they cut the phone lines for more than three days. Even in the embassy the officials can’t contact Washington DC. But it looks like, no, it looks like the White House is quiet. So yeah, I think that that is wrong. 

 

Bill Saunders: Did the US embassy people have any idea why the phones were down, or were not working?

 

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah, of course they know that. They know that Communist party cut the phone lines. And because, she said, in fact, a lot of us officials in Beijing at that time went to assist students. They prepared some gas for them. So at that time, when she knew she couldn’t contact the Beijing embassy, she asked the White House to give them instructions on what to do next. But no response. She told me this story. I think this story will remind us people that if something happened, if the regime did something bad in the west, they should stand up very soon to help the people to fight back the tyranny. 

 

Bill Saunders: Because otherwise the CCP-

 

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah. If we give them one inch, they will take a mile.

 

Bill Saunders: So the hardliners won out within the party. So tell us what happened. Tell us what happened and when it started to happen and when did you know that they were.

 

Wang Dan: Well, we knew very early there was a dispute inside the party. And at that time there’s only one person, just like I said before, just one person can decide that: Deng Xiaoping.

So the hardliners tried a lot to get support from Deng Xiaoping. And Deng Xiaoping is actually a hardliner too. So he supports Lipeng’s idea and take the power, take all the power from Zhao Ziyang and asked Lipeng to organize all these arrangements.

 

Bill Saunders: Yeah, I do remember. And for people again, who don’t know the history after Hu Yaobang, or Jiang Zemin, I remember we followed him here in America, too, because when he became, I don’t know if he was premier, but when he succeeded Hu Yaobang, it just seemed like there was a chance for a peaceful resolution of Tiananmen Square. But then Jiang Zemin took power and the hard liners took over. And how was life in Tiananmen Square at this point?

 

Wang Dan: We were worried every day because the government already sent the military forces, and surrounded the whole Beijing cities. And they’re trying to send the military to Tiananmen square street. But fortunately, we have a lot of citizens, normal Chinese people, who are really brave or really, really brave, and then go straight to block the tanks and the soldiers. But we were still worried every day that maybe late at night or someday they would enter Tiananmen square and maybe we would be killed. So students were very nervous during that time.

 

Bill Saunders: Yeah. So Guangcheng, you did not go to Tiananmen Square from your village.

 

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah, at that time, I was not a student. Yeah, but I know, I supported them. I watched a lot on TV. At that time, there were not a lot of TVs. Maybe only two or three in one village. A lot of people came to the same yard to watch. A lot of people. Even all the farmers in the village come to the yards to watch tv, to try to get the news from Beijing, and see what’s happening so they will know. And of course, they talk about this to each other and even debate about this.

 

Bill Saunders: But at some point, the news on Chinese television you were watching.

 

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah, at that time, Chinese television. And another way, you know, at that time, a lot of radios, every family had a radio. So they use the radios, the short wave, to listen to the news from abroad. And, you know, that news should be much much better than the propaganda. So the journalists in Beijing wrote reports and sent them abroad. Then, use the short wave to come back to mainland China, so the farmers can know that. So this is why a lot of people support the students. 

And another thing is, you know, now, a lot of chinese people said after Tiananmen square, after the gun, before the Communist party tried to steal something in mainland China from the people.

But now the Communist party grabs it. Because they can use force to crack down any people that stand up to protect justice.

 

Bill Saunders: Yeah.

 

Wang Dan: So the Voice of America plays an important role. That’s very interesting. We all listen, we listen and know what happened to our students at that time. Even our students listen to Voice of America to know what is happening in other cities.

So foreign journalists play an interesting and important role during that moment, and are very influential.

 

Bill Saunders: Yeah, I mean, I was alive at the time following it in the United States. So we were following it.

 

Wang Dan: We didn’t know that at that time.

 

Bill Saunders: So tell us, so what happened? What ultimately happened? How did it happen?

 

Wang Dan: Well, then we finally had an informal dialogue with Premier Minister Li Peng, but there’s no result because Li Peng was just scolding us and of course we scolded back. So there’s no common sense between us. After that, the government issued martial law and the situation became serious.

 

Bill Saunders: What day did they issue martial law?

 

Wang Dan: It’s May 19.

 

Bill Saunders: Go ahead.

 

Wang Dan: And we stopped our hunger strikes and we reorganized the students who tried to go against the government at that time. We already know that Zhao Ziyang already lost his power and we thought a coup happened inside the party. We support Zhao Ziyang, but we do not support Lipeng. And we decided to stay in Tiananmen Square and try to see what will happen in the future. 

I must say there are also disputes inside the student group. One group thought it may be time to withdraw from Tiananmen Square and head back to the campus to continue this movement.

 

Bill Saunders: Uh huh.

 

Wang Dan: And the other part of the student organization thought we must stay in Tiananmen Square because the Chinese people all over the country watched Tiananmen’s square, so we must stay. So there’s still some dispute even inside the student organizations.

 

Bill Saunders:  Well, tell us what happened next.

 

Wang Dan:

Well, finally, those students who advocated for staying in Tiananmen square got more support, so they stayed. Yeah, they stayed in Tiananmen Square. And I think the government gradually lost their patience. And Zhao Ziyang lost his power. Under the command of Deng Xiaoping, the military started to use the gun, use force.

That’s what happened on June 3rd and 4th.

 

Bill Saunders: And use the tanks. I mean, in America.

 

Wang Dan: And not only tanks, a lot of military forces were rolling in. 

 

Bill Saunders: Yeah. Guangcheng?

 

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah. I remember in 2003, I went to Beijing. A person who lived in Beijing at that time, she told me, in fact, a lot of people died on Changan street. And, after that, she went to the place, we call it Mu Xi Di. And she said she saw the blood and even the brains on the wall. 

Yeah. So, yes, usually for the western people, maybe they think the Communist party killed a lot of students just in the Tiananmen square. But no, in fact, not just in the Tiananmen square. A lot of people tried to leave Tiananmen Square. Go west. And the Communist party ordered the military to follow them and to keep killing them on Changan street. But I don’t know, I just heard this. Yes, she told me about this tragedy.

 

Bill Saunders: So, when we said they use force, they use soldiers, they use guns, they use tanks, they just rolled in and killed you if you didn’t disperse. And even if you disperse, they kill people.

 

Wang Dan: Yeah. Even if the student shouted at them, they would shoot.

 

Bill Saunders: So they just came in killing people to disperse the whole thing.

 

Wang Dan: Yes. Try to crack down the protest.

 

Guangcheng Chen: I have a question, too. One thing. The Communist party ordered the soldiers to chase the students on Changan street?

 

Wang Dan: Yeah. That’s very important because at the very, very final stage, the student discussed, and Tiananmen square was surrounded by military forces. And the students finally decided to withdraw. That’s on the late night of June 3rd.

 

Bill Saunders: They decided withdraw-

 

Wang Dan: Withdraw and head back to campus.

 

Bill Saunders: Uh-huh.

 

Wang Dan: But when they just left Tiananmen square, the tanks chased the students, and attacked them from behind.

 

Bill Saunders: Even when they were withdrawing?

 

Wang Dan: Yeah, even when they withdraw.

I have one friend called Feng Zheng. He’s pretty famous now. He was attacked by the tank and lost his two legs.

 

Guangcheng Chen: Yes, yes, I know him.

 

Bill Saunders: So the tanks rolled over him and crushed his legs. He lost his legs.

You have been listening to part one of the barefoot lawyer reports, two parts special on the Tiananmen Square massacre. Come back next week, week to listen to part two.