The Center for Human Rights at the Catholic University of America has recently published an op-ed by Chen Guangcheng commemorating the anniversary of the Tiananmen Square Massacre. To view this article, check the link in the description or go to humanrights.catholic.edu.
Will Deatherge: Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of The Barefoot Lawyer Reports on China. My name is Will Deatherage, the producer, and joining me, as always, is Chen Guangcheng.
Chen Guangcheng: Hello, Will. Hello, everyone. I’m glad to see you here again today.
W: Today, we’re gonna be talking about a subject that actually Dr. Bill Saunders, the head of Catholic U’s Center for Human Rights, the department which Guangcheng is a distinguished fellow at, interviewed; in particular, Dr. Saunders interviewed a woman – a young woman – a student named Elsa Johnson from Stanford, and you can view that podcast or listen to that podcast by clicking the link in the description.
Today, Guangcheng, we’re gonna talk about that and just the trend of Chinese spies in universities in general. So Guangcheng, can you tell us a little bit about this young lady, please?
G: Yeah. Yeah. Elsa said last year, the CCP spy gave her a lot of information to try to recruit her to work for [the] CCP. And the spy give her a very good offer, you know: they can invite her to go to mainland China, and they can pay all the fees, and they can give her [the] opportunity to get a lot of money, blah, blah, like this.
This proves that [the] CCP never stops [trying] to find people to work for [the] CCP in the US to do the infiltration here. So yeah, that is very, very dangerous for the Western countries.
W: Yeah. Elsa’s American, right?
G: Yeah. Elsa is American, yes. So now, we can see the CCP tried to do more since last year.
W: Yeah, so Guangcheng, Elsa was prudent enough to, I believe, cut off contact. Usually… and again, people can learn more about that in the podcast that we’ve recorded with her. The link will be in the description. So… but usually, Guangcheng, what would have happened if she would have said yes?
G: Okay. In my experience, before some Western people, especially some political people, the CCP used this way to give them opportunities. For example, even just the police who work around the UN in New York; the CCP gives them a good offer, invites them to travel to mainland China, and gives them very good treatment. And of course, the CCP pays all the fees there.
W: And treats them like a king, right?
G: Yeah, and just gives them good gifts. And in exchange, the CCP asks for special favors and protections at the UN in New York. For example, the CCP will ask for the police to arrest protesters.
W: Gotcha. Yeah, and Guangcheng, specifically for universities, I think… wasn’t there a time that they offered Dr. Saunders, who we talked about, some, like… Can you tell us about that a little bit?
G: I remember, you know, eight years ago, I remind Bill Saunders, I said, “Okay, in the future, you should know, if our human rights work did very good, one proof is the CCP will try to get close to you and give you a good offer to invite you to come to mainland China. Maybe they will give you [the] opportunity in some university to teach there and pay you [a] high salary.”
W: Okay.
G: Several years later, Bill Saunders got an email from [the] CCP, and they gave him a good offer in Beijing.
W: That’s crazy.
G: “You can teach in Beijing. And we can pay you [a] high salary. Maybe you just teach here one month or six weeks, but the salary should be equal [to] your work [for the] whole year.”
W: So equivalent of one year’s salary for just a couple months, is that…?
G: Yeah.
W: Crazy!
G: One year’s salary, just teach a couple months in Beijing. After Bill Saunders told me about this, I said, “Okay, good, Bill, this proves our work did very good!”
W: Yep. Yep. And it should be fairly evident, but for those of you who don’t know, he said no, of course. That, that’s crazy, though; the lengths that they’ll go to get… I mean, it’s basically bribing American people in important institutional positions. It doesn’t have to be a congressman, but like you said, Guangcheng, it could be a police officer. It could be a professor or teacher. They know who to reach out to on things.
G: Yeah. Another thing is, in 2014, I got information from someone who works in the US government. He told me, you know, before, the CCP invites some important political people to visit mainland China and give them [a] good hotel, good car to drive; then the CCP orders the women for them.
W: Oh, my gosh.
G: And the CCP, hiding, take a video [of] this.
W: Oh, wow.
G: Yeah. And the CCP asked him, “Okay, you have to work for us in the US.”
W: Oh, my gosh, that’s just straight blackmail. Oh, my gosh. It’s like something out of a movie. That’s, like, out of “The Godfather.”
G: If something [is] not good for us, you should think how to stop it in the US. And of course, the political people come back, and if they try to support human rights, the CCP will call him: “Do you remember the last time we invited you to come here? We plan to invite you again.” Of course, [the] CCP uses that way to remind the political people, “You should know I have the video of what you did a time ago.”
W: Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I only laugh because it’s something… It sounds like something out of a movie. I mean, it; that’s just… it’s rotten and terrifying. So bribery and blackmail.
G: Yeah, yeah.
W: Dang.
G: That is not a movie. That is true, the CCP did. Yeah. This is why, you know, we call it a “Fangfang,” the woman’s name in California, you know?
W: Oh, yeah. That’s right.
G: Remember that?
W: Yeah. There was a story of a… what was it? A representative or senator?
G: Yes, yes, yes.
W: Guangcheng, can you remind listeners about what happened there?
G: Yeah. And, you know, the woman tried to get close to the representative to influence him to change the policy about CCP or about China.
W: And this was California, right?
G: Yeah. But later, you know, the US FBI took a picture [of them] when they were in the car. So later, the woman escaped back to mainland China. Before, you know, she tried to help [the] CCP to do the censorship and to join some party to get close to more political people there.
W: Yes. She… I mean, she was a spy, basically.
G: Yeah. That… Of course that is a spy! So this is why Elsa’s experience proves the CCP never stops [doing] that.
W: Yeah. And she’s just a student, too, I mean…
G: Yeah, just a student. Yeah.
W: Oh, gosh. I mean, like, we definitely commend her for saying no, of course. I mean, that’s…
G: So I just want to remind our listeners: don’t think the CCP [will[ just do the bad thing in Mainland China. The CCP is around us in the US. We should stop the CCP’s long arm here. We should kick them out.
W: Yeah. Well, Guangcheng, you know, on that topic, the last thing we’ll talk about today is, if somebody ever finds themselves in a situation like that, where they suspect that someone from the Communist Party is trying to, you know, convince them to join, or help, or travel to China, what should they do?
G: First, of course, they should not [give a] response about that. And then report [it] to [the] FBI. And if the CCP keeps giving you information about this, you should expose them immediately. Don’t think you [can] just ignore [them]. You should expose them, like Elsa.
W: Yep. Yeah, who knows who else they might be talking to? You might be saving someone else’s skin there.
G: Yeah. If you want, you can contact Will.
W: Yeah, absolutely. Go to our website at [humanrights.catholic.edu] if you have a story similar to Elsa’s, or if you’ve ever been in a situation where you… of a suspected Chinese spy that have interacted with you. We’d be interested in the possibility of having you on the show. That’s humanrights.catholic.edu. Guangcheng, thanks so much for all this information.
G: Thank you, Will. Thank you [to] our listeners. See you next time.
The Catholic University of America’s Center for Human Rights has published a documentary on the United Nations Universal Declaration on Human Rights. The documentary features world-class human rights experts from former State Department officials, to ambassadors and human rights activists. It can be found on our website at humanrights.catholic.edu.