You’re listening to part two of Remembering the Life and Achievements of Jerry Alan Cohen, a strong advocate for human rights in communist China. To listen to part one, click the link in the description or go to humanrights.catholic.edu.
Chen Guangcheng: In the Chinese universities, Chinese laws might seem fair, but they are not because the CCP breaks its own laws, especially in the rural areas.
Will Deatherage: Right. Okay, gotcha. So it sounds like you exposed him to what was actually happening.
G: Yes. Yeah, so he understands now. He’s so interested about that. Yeah, and we kept a good relationship. And of course, 2005, because I did the investigation about forced abortion, the CCP kidnapped me from Beijing and put me in black jail.
W: Right.
G: At that time, he taught in Tsinghua University, and I just visited him before. So when he found out the CCP kidnapped me, he said, “According to Chinese law, they have to release you within 24 hours.”
And of course, in 24 hours, he talked to his friend who worked in police and the person said, “Oh, that’s happening? Really? Let me check.” And the person came back, but no answer. I think it’s because the kidnapping was ordered by someone above the state police.
W: Gotcha, okay.
Yeah, central state police. So of course, since that time, you know, [the] CCP put me under house arrest, and [the] next seven years, I never had the opportunity to talk to him.
W: Wow, okay.
G: Yeah. Later, [in] 2010, the CCP took me from prison. He tried to visit me. But of course, it did not happen, but he planned to do that. So we are good friends and we work together to try to push mainland China to become a constitutional country and to try to help the rule of law. Doesn’t work. That proved the CCP cannot change from within.
W: So Guangcheng, after you were released, what was the first time that you talked with him after that?
G: First time is after I came in the U.S. Embassy in Beijing. Because, you know, I asked the CCP to punish the officials who put me in prison.
W: Right.
G: Of course, the CCP don’t want to do that because the central government did that, right? So they cannot punish themself. So I say, “No, I don’t want to come out.”
W: You’re talking about coming out of the embassy? Right?
G: Yeah. The U.S. Embassy, yeah. So then I asked, “Can I talk to Professor Jerry Cohen?” And they said, “Okay, let’s try to call Jerry Cohen to let you talk on the phone.” And later that night, you know, he just used the phone to call him.
W: Where was he? Was he in China or New York?
G: New York.
W: Okay, gotcha.
G: Yeah, yeah. The call [was] from Beijing to New York. And that is after seven years, we have [the] opportunity to talk [to] each other. He [was] very happy I got my call, and he [was] very happy [that] I can escape. And now I’m in safety in the embassy, right?
Finally, he told me, “Safety first.” [That] means if they can’t guarantee my safety, not to agree to anything.
W: Got it, okay.
G: Yeah, that is the meaning, but he didn’t say that. He just said, “Safety first.” Ah, but I understand what he said. And of course, later, you know, after the negotiation between the U.S. and the CCP, May 19th, 2012, I [flew] to here and I met him in the airport. Then I worked with him in New York [for] one year. Very, very good friend. Every time I visited New York, we [would] have a meeting or we [would] have lunch or dinner to talk together.
But, you know, September 22, he passed away, so I’m still so sorry about this.
W: Yeah. How old was he?
G: 95.
W: Okay, so he did live a very good, long life. And Guangcheng, after you came to the United States, did you ever work with him on any human rights work or did you guys mostly just stay in touch as friends? Like, what was your relationship like after you came to the United States?
G: Yeah, we worked together to try to push the U.S. government to focus on [the] human rights situation in China. And we tried to help the human rights lawyers in China too. Of course, the CCP tried to influence the government and the university too. So he helped me a lot too, you know. In mainland China at that time, he tried to give me [the] opportunity to study the law in a university, in a law school. He worked hard, but [that] doesn’t work because [of] CCP policy.
W: Yeah, so did he stay on good terms with the CCP?
G: Yeah, of course. He is the CCP’s good friend. But I think the CCP tried to give him the opportunity to use him to influence the U.S. government, but he [was] interested in the law. In some part, he helped [the] CCP but he still wanted to push Mainland China to change the party state system, right?
W: So it sounds like he was trying to change it a lot from the inside, right?
G: Yeah, they… He tried to help China to have the rule of law and the constitution, but of course that didn’t work.
W: Right.
G: Yeah, so I still remember [the] last time I visited New York. I gave him a call, he invited me to go to his apartment to have lunch together. We’re sitting there, we talk a lot. He [was] very interested in what I’m doing. He asked me to share our podcast link to him.
“[I] will listen to every time,” he said.
Then, you know, later he said, “Next time I hope you can bring your children to come here, I want see how they are now.”
W: When was the last time?
G: Last year.
W: Last year? Okay. So 2024?
G: Yeah, you know, but the children [were] still studying in school. I thought, “I’m so sorry about this,” you know. I should have made that happen. But for me, you know, I think that is my fault. Yeah, I’m so sorry about this when I heard he’d passed away.
So on September 24, in the morning, I called the number, his cell phone. No one answered. Later, someone called me back, so I asked them, “What happened?” You know, she told me he died, like, what’s happened; I felt so sorry, and I decided very quick to go to New York. So we arrived there, six o’clock at that time, so I talked to his sons, his family, and his wife -very sick- just sitting there. Even [they] don’t know who I am.
I just started sitting there, holding her hand. I just think back 22 years ago, he and his wife visited my home in 2003; that’s very clear in my mind about it. Now I’m sitting there and he… I don’t know where he is. So sorry about this.
W: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it sounds like he did a lot of great work.
G: Yeah, yeah, he did a lot of great work.
W: Influential on your career and your trajectory, and supporting you, Guangcheng.
G: Yes, yeah.
W: We’ll make sure to, uh, honor his legacy by sharing this podcast, of course.
G: Yeah. Even, you know, at that time, keeping in touch [was] very difficult because even I don’t have a cell phone, didn’t have a computer.
W: While you were in…?
G: o, no, before that. 2003.
W: Oh, okay.
G: And he prepared a computer for me.
W: Oh, wow.
G: …so I can use the computer to send emails to him.
W: Oh, wow, okay
G: So he really wanted to help me.
W: Yeah. Very generous.
G: Yeah, very generous.
W: Alright. Well, we encourage you all to keep following our podcast on humanrights.catholic.edu and share it across all our social media platforms and, you know, make sure to keep Jerry’s memory alive, right, Guangcheng?
G: Yes, yes. I miss him. And, yeah, if you are interested about this, please search the articles.
W: Yes, yeah. And there’s several articles that came out ion his death, and we’ll include them in the description for sure. Thank you everyone, and thank you, Guangcheng.
G: Thank you, Will. Thank you.
The Catholic University of America’s Center for Human Rights has published a documentary on the United Nations Universal Declaration on Human Rights. The documentary features world-class human rights experts from former state department officials to ambassadors and human rights activists. It can be found on our website at humanrights.catholic.edu.