You are listening to part two of the barefoot lawyer reports podcast on the Tiananmen Square massacre. If you have not listened to part one, please check the link in the description.

Bill Saunders: Are there any other stories you want to tell us about what happened to people you know? How did you yourself not get killed?

Wang Dan: Well, I wasn’t in Tiananmen Square that night, actually. I was in charge of another conference, a routine conference in Peking University to try to discuss the strategy or something like that. So I wasn’t there that night, but I was still in my dorm. But late at night, I got a lot of phone calls from Tiananmen Square, from other locations in Beijing. They called me and told me something terrible happened and people had died. I knew what happened. I tried to organize 200 or 300 students to bike to Tiananmen Square, but the main road was already blocked by the police and military forces.

Bill Saunders: So, hundreds of people, maybe thousands of people were killed?

Wang Dan: We don’t know the exact number. Now, I think only the government knows.

Bill Saunders: Yeah, we don’t know.

Wang Dan: Last year we heard news from BBC that the British government had a secret document that said over 10,000 people were killed.

Bill Saunders: 10,000. Go ahead, Guangcheng.

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah, I heard this number. Yeah, from Britain and the U.S., if the U.S. government had the report, it would be almost 20,000.

Bill Saunders: Almost 20.

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah, almost.

Bill Saunders: We think somewhere between 10,000 and 20,000.

Wang Dan: Yeah, we don’t know the number.

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah, we don’t know. No one knows the correct number.

Bill Saunders: It started on the night of June 3, right? Did it continue all night and into the day? Or– 

Wang Dan: It continued for several days. On June 6, there were still people killed by the PRA. And there were  other protests in other cities like Shanghai and Chengdu. They also have some people who died in Shanghai. Not in Shanghai, but in Chengdu, at least 100 people died.

Bill Saunders: So they crushed the protests everywhere?

Wang Dan: Mostly everywhere.

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah. A lot of cities. When I was in prison, a student told me that at that time, he was a student in Qingdao. Before June 4, I remember he said on May 29, he brought the students from Beijing back to Qingdao. But later, the Communist party ordered the military from Xinjiang and stormed Qingdao, and tried to kill the citizens if they stood up to protest.

Yeah. In fact, not just Qingdao, I think in every city the Communist party is prepared to do that. For example, they bring the soldiers from Xinjiang to Qingdao, and they send the Qingdao soldiers to another province. 

Bill Saunders: So they don’t know the people there.

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They don’t live there. They just ignore everything, just follow the Communist– 

Bill Saunders: They’re not sympathetic to–

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah, yeah. One thing I think is very important is, I heard from mainland China, a lot of people, some farmers, they talk to each other. They said, “Oh, if the Tiananmen Square crackdown happened now, if all the protests in Beijing happened now, what’s the result, do you think?” A lot of people said, “Okay, if the protests happen now, we will stand up to fight back together. We will do it in the villages, we will do it in the small cities, the middle cities, and fight back the Communist Party.” I think the Communist Party knows this and that’s why the Communist Party will very quickly prepare the police to crack down on protests everywhere. 

Bill Saunders: Let me make sure I understand. You’re saying that as a consequence of Tiananmen Square and the crackdown, the Communist Party now believes that the people will fight back if that happens again, and it would spread very quickly. So when anything happens, they crush it.

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah. I mean, the Communist Party is very worried the protests will happen again, like 1989. The Chinese people said if the protests happen again in Beijing, very quickly, it will spread to the whole country. All the people will stand up to fight back against the Communist Party.

Bill Saunders: So you think it would spread now throughout the whole country, more quickly and wider. And the Communist Party is afraid of that?

Guangcheng Chen: Yes.

Wang Dan: CCP learned lessons from this movement. So they decided in the future if any of this kind of protest happened, they must crack down quickly. They could not let it spread to other countries, other cities. They learned a lot of lessons. That’s why they still keep the power now.

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah.

Bill Saunders: Well, I have to tell you, I know some, I have met some people who were involved in Tiananmen Square who now, are not opponents of the CCP. They were there, and they say that the students and everybody went too far. I don’t know. 

Wang Dan: That is not true.

Bill Saunders: But what do you say to somebody who says that?

Wang Dan: Well, I know there’s a lot of criticism that our side was pretty radical. But I think there’s no truth to it. Because 3,000 students go to Tiananmen Square on  hunger strikes, sacrificing their faith. They are waiting to sacrifice their life. They only have two requests. One is to have dialogue with the government. Could you say this is a radical request?

Bill Saunders: Uh-huh.

Wang Dan: Another request is that they rewrite the April 26th editorial.

Bill Saunders: Rewrite?

Wang Dan: Rewrite the editorial. Because the editorial was wrong. It criticized us as a bad guy, trying to overthrow the government. So we require the government to rewrite that editorial,. to admit we are patriotic.

Bill Saunders: Patriotic, right.

Wang Dan: We sacrificed our lives to just have these two very low requests. How could you say we are radical? And, on the contrary, I think it was the government that was really radical. They use the military to crack down on the people. But they will not accept these two very low requests. Who are radicals? Obviously, it was the government that’s radical.

Bill Saunders: Guangcheng, do you have any thoughts on that?

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah, I want to talk more about the military. In fact, the Communist Party tried to use some military forces to crack down Tiananmen Square. But it looks like some ignored that. They don’t want to do that.

Bill Saunders: The military did not want to do that?

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah. They didn’t want to follow the order from the Communist Party. So later, they have to use another province of soldiers to do that. From that, there’s proof that in the military, a lot of people support the students. Yeah. So, you know, some official in military, his name is Xu–

Wang Dan: Xinxian. 

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah, Xu Xinxian. Just because when the Communist Party asked him to bring the soldiers to crack down Tiananmen Square and he refused, the leader of the Communist Party shot him. 

Bill Saunders: Shot him?

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah. 

Wang Dan: He was sentenced seven years after that.

Bill Saunders: He was what? 

Guangcheng Chen: Sentenced seven years in prison.

Bill Saunders: Okay, so the Tiananmen Square crackdown kind of crushed democracy movement or liberating movement in China. And the CCP learned the lessons to crack down on democracy and protests and dialogue wherever people want it. What is this? What do we say about China today? What does that mean for the future of democracy and human rights and rule of law in China? Is it hopeless?

Wang Dan: I couldn’t say it’s hopeless, but it might take longer than our expectations. 1989 was  a very important turning point in the history of PRC. Before 1989, even some high level officials inside the party really looked forward to some political reform. But after 1989, nobody inside the party dared to advocate for any political reform. And another important thing is why we went to the street in 1989, because there was corruption. But we were cracked down by the government. I call what happened in 1989 a victory of  corruption.

Bill Saunders: Victory of corruption.

Wang Dan: That’s very important for the further development of China. You could say this is the new picture of China: we have rapid economic growth, but hand in hand with corruption. That’s the true face of China now. So that’s why 1989 is very important. If we succeeded at that time, I mean, China would  have a healthy development, even healthier economic development than today. So that’s the significance of 1989. 

So we already lost our hope that the CCP will do political reform. And what happened in 1989 gave us a lesson. Unless we stand up against this regime, there will be no hope for democracy.

Bill Saunders: Guangcheng? 

Guangcheng Chen: For me, I want to talk more about that. Now the Communist Party knows if the people try to stand up to ask for democracy, the Communist Party can crack down very quickly. And I can assure that in the future that will be happening again. I just want to remind the people and the Western democratic countries that if that happens, we should be quick to respond to help the people to prevent the Communist Party from using the military. We have to do and think and prepare for that.

Bill Saunders: Well, I mean, there’s no hope for reform. Is there any hope for reform with the CCP in power?

Guangcheng Chen: No one believes in the CCP now, you know, the Communist Party destroyed all the social ethics in mainland China. So everyone knows about that. Of course they know where it’s better. They know what political system is good. This is why a lot of people tried to get the opportunity to move to Europe, America, etc. So I think, for me, there is no help from the CCP. We have to throw them through it to the people of history. That’s the only way we can resolve the Communist Party’s attempts to kidnap the country.

Bill Saunders: Yeah.

Guangcheng Chen: So you leave it to the people. 

Bill Saunders: You got  to overthrow the CCP.

Guangcheng Chen: Yes. Overthrow them.

Wang Dan: I still have hope for democracy in the future in China, because I think the CCP can keep their power now just because they still have economic growth and they can pay a lot of money to maintain their power. But obviously everybody can see that they lost this privilege, this advantage. I mean, the economy will drop in China and the government will lose enough money to pay those people who support them. I think that’s the hope for the future.

Bill Saunders: That will make the CCP change. If the–

Wang Dan: Yeah, they cannot bribe the people. They cannot bribe the people forever.

Bill Saunders: I mean, do you think that the CCP today is characterized by marxist orthodoxy–most of the members–or greed for money?

Wang Dan: No, I don’t think so. I don’t think there’s only one true marxist inside the party. They already lost the faith of any ideology. All they want is just to keep their power and get money. That’s their faith. Money is their faith. There’s no ideology already.

Bill Saunders: Do you agree, Guangcheng?

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah. Benefit first.

Bill Saunders: Benefit first.

Guangcheng Chen: So this is why the company keeps the power and doesn’t want any democracy to grow in mainland China.

Bill Saunders: Yeah. So do you want to say anything about, you know, we’re coming up on another anniversary of the crackdown on June 4. Do you want to say anything to summarize that or the memorial?

Wang Dan: I think the U.S. and the Western countries should also learn lessons from what happened in 1989. After the crackdown of 1989, the Western countries, led by the United States, imposed sanctions on the Chinese government. But they dropped it very quickly.

Bill Saunders: Dropped it.

Wang Dan: That’s why I always criticize the former President Bush because he decided to drop the sanction very quickly. Just two years. Why did the U.S. do this? I think the Western countries always, for a long time, have a fantasy about China, even for the CCP. They think if there’s a middle class in China, if there’s economic growth in China, that the country will automatically turn to the direction of a democracy. Now, we all know this is a fantasy.

Bill Saunders: It’s a fantasy because we’ve seen economic growth and it hasn’t–

Wang Dan: It’s a fantasy because the CCP, of course, wants economic growth, but it’s not for the countries, it’s for their benefit. So there’s no hope for them to do political reform. They will not want to, they won’t do anything to strengthen their power. So I think Western countries will learn these lessons. The whole of the 1980s was  kind of a golden time for China. And the whole Western world thinks, wow, this big change happened in China, and maybe China will turn to democracy. But 1989 is a big lesson that even though we have ten years of golden age, the government will show their true face if they feel threatened by the people. I hope U.S. Western countries remember these lessons.

Bill Saunders: Do you see the CCP as a threat to other nations besides the Chinese people? Is it a threat to its neighbors or to the U.S.? Or is it only a threat to–

Wang Dan: Of course, when the CCP has confidence just like this, Xi Jinping seems very confident. When they become very confident, of course they will try to expand their power. First stage is Asia. They already took Hong Kong back. They are going to take Taiwan back, and they will be the number one in Asia, and they will expand their power to other regions. That’s the nature of CCP. That’s the nature of any dictatorship.

Bill Saunders: Yeah. Well, Guangcheng says that a lot of the wealth that the CCP has made is used to corrode America, too. To pay people in America, to make people their friends through paying them money. So all the economic growth China has had has also helped the CCP to corrode democratic institutions in America. Right, Guangcheng? 

Guangcheng Chen: Yes.

Bill Saunders: Yes. I mean, the CCP is a real threat in the United States because it uses that money to corrupt our institutions, right?

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah, they use different ways. Propaganda, infiltration, etc. No principles for the Communist Party. They just think about how to crack down on the best values.

Bill Saunders: Yeah. And how to keep power and make more money and send their children to America and Europe to go to school and to have second homes in America and in Europe. Any final thoughts about Tiananmen Square? The lessons for today, I think, there’s lessons for anybody who supports democracy and human rights. There’s lessons for Chinese people who do and for American people who do, that you have to stand up  to the CCP because it’s determined to crack down on democracy and human rights no matter what.

Wang Dan: Well, as a conclusion, I want to say that I hope the Western countries and the Western peoples do not lose their hope for China, because we will have a young generation, generation by generation. If you look back to 1989, Chinese people were brave enough to stand up at that time. So there’s no reason to doubt the bravery of the Chinese people. In the future, I still have my hope for the future generations. I mean, when the situation changed, I mean, when CCP lost their support and economic power, I think, the conflict between the people and the government became serious, I still believe the Chinese people will stand up again.

Bill Saunders: And the West and the media and the United States and other countries need to respond quickly when that happens.

Wang Dan: And I hope they can support any protest very quickly and strongly.

Bill Saunders: Guangcheng?

Guangcheng Chen: Yes, I agree. I want to remind the Western people, the CCP did not just persecute the Chinese people, they tried to crack down on Western values. So not far away in the future, they could surround us. We should be vigilant. We should be very careful doing trade with the Communist Party.

Bill Saunders: Should we do it? Should we have trade?

Guangcheng Chen: No, no, no. I think we should think about how to support mainland China to become a democratic system. This is very important. If we look at the Coronavirus, a lot of people know that it is a bioweapon. That is a war. Just a special war.

Bill Saunders: A special what?

Guangcheng Chen: War. Not using guns, not using tanks, but they change our lives. Yeah. So I think, if the Communist Party gets power, the whole world will be Nazis.

Bill Saunders: If they keep power and expand power, nobody’s safe.

Wang Dan: Yeah, maybe the last point I want to make. I think regime change is very important. I know Western countries really cherish the value of human rights. Human rights are very good, but without any regime change, there’s no space for any improvement of human rights. I hope Western people can remember this.

Bill Saunders: Okay.

Thank you. This concludes another episode of the Barefoot Lawyer reports. We’ll be back with another one soon.