Bill Saunders:  Welcome to this edition of the Barefoot Lawyer Reports.

I’m William Saunders. I’m the director of the Center for Human Rights at the Catholic University of America, and I’m a human rights lawyer. With us today is Chen Guangcheng, the Barefoot Lawyer himself. Welcome, Guangcheng.

Guangcheng Chen: Okay, thank you. Thank you, everyone.

Bill Saunders: And we have a special guest for this podcast, Peter Tozzi, who I believe is at the University of Virginia, Peter?

Peter Tozzi: Virginia Tech.

Bill Saunders: Virginia Tech. What year are you in school?

Peter Tozzi: I’m currently a senior.

Bill Saunders: We’re going to talk about the developments regarding Cardinal Zen of Hong Kong. Peter, what made you interested in this issue?

Peter Tozzi: Well, this past summer I was an intern at the Heritage Foundation’s Asian Studies center, and working alongside Olivia Enos, my supervisor. We were tracking the developments of the Cardinal Zen case, and this was in May. And so when news broke out of Cardinal Zen being charged with “the conspiracy to collude with foreign forces,” as the authorities put it, for his involvement in the 612 Humanitarian Relief Fund, we definitely saw the need to write something about this. And also, I am a Catholic as well, so this definitely hit close to home.

Bill Saunders: Yeah. I want to mention that another fellow there in the spring was one of my students, and we did a podcast with her, Jillian Richards. I’m sure that we will link to that if anyone wants to follow up, because we talked about some religious liberty issues on the call with her, specifically  having to do with the imprisonment of a pastor and some of the persecution there. But returning to this Cardinal Zen situation, why don’t you tell us what you learned and what you wrote about. 

Peter Tozzi: Of course. Cardinal Zen–also known as the new conscience of Hong Kong–is just this amazing figure, in both China and Hong Konghe’s been extremely critical of the Chinese Communist Party’s persecution against Christians. He’s also been very critical of the China Vatican deal, the one that was first agreed upon in 2018, renewed in 2020, and then renewed again this past fall, in October 2022. Regarding the Vatican China deal, it was made in private, so it is unclear as to what was specifically discussed. However, what we do know is that in 2018, the deal was strongly supported by Pope Francis and Vatican Secretary of State Pietro Perlin, to create a medium for dialogue between the Vatican and China. Their intent was also to ameliorate divisions between the underground church and the Catholic Patriotic Association. And, with this, the Vatican also recognized seven excommunicated bishops who were previously selected by the Chinese government. However, Cardinal Zen had been sounding the alarm that this would kill and sell out the underground church. He also didn’t  trust Perlin, one of the architects of the deal, because he considered himself  a political man and not so much a man driven by faith. Additionally, what I also found out is that before the deal was struck in 2018, Cardinal Zen also attempted to meet with Pope Francis in Rome, but he was reportedly turned away.

Bill Saunders: Peter, let’s pause there a second, because I want to bring in Guangcheng. Of course, Guangcheng can tell us what many Americans won’t know, which is what the Chinese Communist Party said or maybe it passed a law after the deal was concluded with the Vatican?

Guangcheng Chen: Yes, yes. Before they made the agreement with the Vatican, the Communist Party  promised Pope Francis they would prepare the names and send the names to the Vatican to let the Pope decide who will become the cardinal in mainland China. But later, the Communist Party made a law that said we can do anything about the cardinals ourselves. So it looks like the Communist  party stopped the government with the Vatican. I think we should push the Vatican and all the Catholics to stand up to support the Chinese people.

Bill Saunders: Let’s go back to Peter. Peter, pick us up with what happened with Cardinal Zen. Let’s focus on that.

Peter Tozzi: Yeah, of course. What happened was that back in May, he was charged with these trumped up charges. On the record the charges made against him were his involvement with the 612 Humanitarian Relief Fund, so this was the ostensible reason. But, you know, I’m sort of suspicious about this, and I do think it has to relate to Cardinal Zen’s outspokenness of the Chinese Communist Party and religious persecution in China and Hong Kong. And so that happened in May. And then, this past fall, he was convicted, so very recently, he was convicted for not registering the 612 Humanitarian Relief Fund with the government. After that, Cardinal Zen and the other four democracy activists appealed this with the high court.

I just want to go back to one point that Mr. Cheng brought up about the CCP installing bishops and going against the terms of the agreement, at least what we know about the agreement. A few weeks ago the Vatican came out with a statement of surprise and regret over the CCP’s installation of an auxiliary bishop in Jiangxi, which is a diocese not recognized by the Vatican. It doesn’t seem very surprising that the CCP would do this. 

Bill Saunders: Okay, so when we look at the big picture, Cardinal Zen was convicted and I understand that fine was imposed. There’s no jail time. As I understand it, it’s not a conviction under what Guangcheng calls “the evil law.” It was instead a conviction under a colonial era law, correct?

Peter Tozzi: As far as I understand, yes. 

Bill Saunders: Okay, so the big picture of this is, the Chinese Communist Party has been moving against Hong Kong for many years, trying to crush democracy there. We have had many podcasts on this. And we had Guangcheng give a human rights lecture at Catholic University, which you can find on our website, which is Catholic.edu/chr for Center for Human Rights. And many other things we’ve done to focus attention on this. And of course, everybody will know about the persecution also of Jimmy Lai, the publisher of Apple Daily.  There’s an excellent film that’s just coming out about him called, “Hong Konger.” But this is part of an overall effort by the Chinese Communist Party to crush democracy in Hong Kong.

And parentheses, I’m a human rights lawyer, this is contrary to the terms of a treaty they’re bound by, it’s illegal under international law anyway. But it’s part of their strategy to stifle democracy in Hong Kong, which, by the way, I hope everybody can see. This is a perfect example of what the Chinese Communist Party thinks about democracy. And don’t be naive about whether you can have democracy under the Chinese Communist Party, because what they’re doing in Hong Kong shows you you cannot. 

But anyway, they go after Cardinal Zen because he’s one of the most outspoken people in Hong Kong, along with Jimmy Lai and some others. And they’re using the point that it is not what law he was convicted under, but they’re using a colonial era law to strangle democracy. So it’s what we in America would call “selective prosecution.” In other words, they’re going to find any weapon they can to silence his voice. And he’s been very pressing. In fact, I did want to mention that, I’ve met with him myself in Hong Kong. I was there, but it was about a decade ago, meeting with democracy and human rights people, and I also met with Cardinal Zen and his right hand man. He’s somebody that’s been highly respected. I mean, I’ve been involved in this work about China and the Communist Party in Hong Kong for over 20 years. And in that entire time, Zen has been a key figure. So silencing him or trying to silence him is an important goal of the Communist Party. So, with that in mind, I want to ask Guangcheng if he has any comments about what the Communist Party is trying to do about Cardinal Zen and even about Jimmy Lai or about others.

Guangcheng Chen: So, about Jimmy Lai, the Communist Party tried to put him in prison just because the Hong Kong government requested Beijing to tell them whether Jimmy Lai used the lawyer from London or not. Until now the Communist Party didn’t give them the precise answer, so they didn’t  have the result. And another thing is, another activist in Hong Kong–she is a lawyer and is a journalist–before the Communist Party said she encouraged people to go to the street to protest, to support Tiananmen Square. But that protest didn’t get allowed from the police station. So the Communist Party tried to put her in prison. First, the Communist Party deceived in the local court. But later, the middle court changed and they said, “Okay, no problem for her.” I hope in the future we can work with people who stand with the rule of law, not just listen to the Communist Party to give the activity in Hong Kong more freedom.

Bill Saunders: Yeah, I think that’s an important thing for listeners to consider. Guangcheng one of his main themes and what he talks about is what is wonderful about America and about any true democracy is that you have the rule of law. The rule of law means that the law binds everybody, whether you’re powerful, or whether you’re weak, whether you’re rich, whether you’re poor, whether you’re a Communist Party member or you’re not a Communist Party member. And of course, the rule of law is what does not exist in China under the CCP. What we need to do is to try to help the Hong Kongers to use the rule of law so that they won’t have their human rights crushed, by really lawless judges and lawyers. And there’s some hope of that, as he just pointed out with this journalist. So all is not lost in Hong Kong. We have to keep fighting, as we said, like Jimmy Lai and others, we have to keep the pressure on the Communist Party, which means we have to put pressure on our government here in America to put pressure on the Communist Party to allow the rule of law to truly operate in Hong Kong, and to have just outcomes in any proceedings that concern Jimmy Lai or Cardinal Zen or anybody else.

Peter, is there anything else? I think we’re going to come to the end of this podcast pretty soon. Anything else you want to add?

Peter Tozzi: Yeah, of course. I mean, I think critically, too, the Vatican should take a tougher stance on China. I know their big agenda has been to create a dialogue between the Vatican and China, but I think especially with the rising persecution against Christians, in China and Hong Kong, it is important that Pope Francis comes out and voices support for the faithful; to be direct and deliberate in his messaging. 

Bill Saunders: Yeah, and for those that, maybe don’t know anything about this, there was what’s called an underground church in China for a long time, which was an unofficial church and an officially recognized church. And this was both for Protestants and Catholics. And again, I’ve been involved in this for over 20 years, and the issue has always been from a Catholic perspective, what should the Vatican do vis-a-vis these churches? Because in some ways the underground churches, the unofficial churches, have been the most faithful. They insisted on their loyalty to Rome and adherence to Catholic teaching, where some of the officials are always under pressure to change, even to change their doctrine to conform with Communist Party ideas. And again, I just mentioned, as the Christian churches, they’re having things like retranslating the Bible to make it more consistent with communist views and the ideas of Chairman Xi. And they have pictures of Chairman Xi up in the front of the church. At Christmas time they even sing songs or carols in church that praise Cardinal Xi. So you can see why unofficial churches don’t want to be involved in that. It is a delicate, diplomatic situation. But the point is that for 20 years, over 20 years, the Vatican has been trying to decide how to minister to those two flocks and to help China. And this recent agreement which Peter and Guangcheng have been discussing has been heavily criticized. It seems the Vatican now may be realizing that you just can’t trust the Chinese Communist Party.

Guangcheng, do you have any more comments?

Guangcheng Chen: Yeah, I think, now I just wanna let our listeners know that we live in a resting place. We have more space to do something to help the Chinese people. So we should join hands to give the Community Party the pressure everywhere–on Wall Street or the U.S., or other countries–that if the Communist Party continues to destroy any democracy, the rule of law, and freedom of speech, we should let them know we will stand up on the far back. 

Bill Saunders: Yes. So the more pressure you give, the more chances you have for success against the Chinese Communist Party. I want to thank Peter for being our guest on the podcast. And I want to invite those who listen to subscribe to the Barefoot Lawyer podcast, which you can do easily on our website. And also visit our Center for Human Rights website, where you’ll find lots of information about Guangcheng and about our recent and continuing activities against the Chinese Communist Party, and to try to promote democracy and human rights, which is at catholic.edu/Chr. That CHR is for the Center for Human Rights. We look forward to talking to you next time.