You’re listening to part one of Remembering the Life and Achievements of Jerry Alan Cohen, a strong advocate for human rights in Communist China. To listen to part two, check the link in the description or go to humanrights.catholic.edu.
Will Deatherage: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of The Barefoot Lawyer Reports on China. My name is Will Deatherage, the producer. Joining me as always is Cheng Guangcheng.
Chen Guangcheng: Hello, Will. Hello, everyone. Yeah, I’m glad to be here to talk to with you.
W: And today we’re gonna report on some news that pertains to Guangcheng personally, but the human rights world very broadly. Guangcheng, can you tell us what happened?
G: Yeah, yeah. I just want our listeners to know, you know, on September 22nd, my very good friend, Jerry Cohen, passed away.
W: Yeah, and that’s Jerry Cohen for those listening.
G: Yeah, yeah. I’m so sorry about this, you know, he’s my good friend. We met in 2003. 22 years, right?
W: Yeah.
G: [In] 2002, I get a call from the US Embassy in Beijing. And he asked me to go to the office. They said they have a program, want talk with me. When I arrived there, they told me that they decided to give me an invitation to visit the US and to give me [the] opportunity to understand the US government, political system; and to learn about human rights in the US.
W: And what year was this, Guangcheng, again?
G: 2002. My human rights work was about disabled people and farmers at the time.
W: Right.
G: And, yeah, I… of course, I received that and I prepared to visit the US. I remember in July 2003, I [flew] to the US. At that time, I visited different states here. Like Washington DC, and New York City, and Washington State, Texas…
W: Wow. a lot of places.
G: So yeah, several places I remember. And also San Francisco. And when I visited New York, I had planned to talk with Jerry Cohen.
W: Jerry; can you describe what he was doing at the time? Like, what was his job?
G: At that time Jerry Cohen worked at NYU. He was a law professor. He [taught] there. And another thing is, because he’s very famous and he… since [the] 1960s he visited China.
W: He visited China since the ’60s?
G: Yes. 1971, when President Nixon visited Mainland China – of course, that is secret, right? But he helped that happen. So [the] CCP thinks he is China’s good friend.
W: Right, right.
G: Yeah, and he visits China several times every year. Yeah, CCP liked him. And when I met him, we planned to meet to talk [for] one hour, but later, you know, because his Chinese is very good, he just used Chinese to talk to me, and asked me a lot of questions about rule of law.
W: Where did he meet you, Guangcheng?
G: In New York City.
W: Okay, gotcha.
G: Yeah, and we talked a lot about rural China, about rural courts, about how the rural government works.
W: The rural government? Like for the farmers?
G: Yeah.
W: Okay.
G: How… about the farmers and disabled people’s lives. So he was very, very interested about what I’m doing. I told him, “I’m not a lawyer, I’m a barefoot lawyer. You have shoes, I don’t have.” He did laugh at that! And then he said, two months later, “I will visit Beijing in October.”
W: Guangcheng, at the time… so you mentioned that the Communist Party thought that he was their friend, right?
G: Yes.
W: Did he… was he involved in human rights law at that point in China or not yet?
G: I think he [was] involved with trying to push China to create the rule of law system.
W: Okay, so he was an advocate for democracy in China?
G: Yeah. Democracy, I’m not sure; maybe the CCP refilled the party. He just asked, “You should follow the law.” The CCP had to say yes.
W: Yeah. He was pro rule of law then?
G: Yeah, yeah. The CCP cannot say “We ignore the law, we ignore the rule of law,” right? Yeah. So he wanted to use his power to influence [the] CCP to become better, I think.
W: Then what happened?
G: Yeah, then we talked a lot, and, of course, more than one hour. And then later, I remember he used English to tell his assistant, “Oh, today we struck gold.” So yeah, [in] August I came back to Mainland China that year, and October, when he came to China, I just called the phone number and he made a plan to meet me in Beijing.
W: Okay.
G: I planned to visit him. And we talked a lot about how to push Mainland China to become a constitutional country and have rule of law.
W: And what year was this when he went to Beijing?
G: 2003.
W: Okay, gotcha.
G: Yeah. So we talked a lot, you know, he introduced me to meet his friends in different organizations. For example, the professors, the university’s leaders, even some people who work in the government. Since that time, you know, every time he visited China, we talked on the phone and we made a plan to see each other to talk about how to protect the farmers and disabled people’s rights.
W: I’d tell him what I’m doing, and he [was] very interested. And that year, you know, he made a plan to visit my home. We talked a lot. I introduced the people to him. Of course, the people just used [the] local language, so I [was the] translator.
W: Oh, wow. Okay.
G: Yeah, yeah. So…Since that time, you know, we became friends regardless of age.
W: Oh, yeah?
G: Yeah. When we talked together, [about] anything, I could talk with him. Anything. I’m not care [if] he is a professor, he is a famous [person]. He never [thought] I’m a poor person, I come from rural China, I’m not a lawyer. But he knows I understand a lot about [the] CCP, about government, about law systems, like that. I understand Chinese society’s situation.
He had a lot of friends, of course, in China, but almost [all of them], they are the officials, the professors or the law school leaders in the universities, like that. Before he didn’t have the opportunity [to be] close to rural China’s people. Maybe he just knows [the] city’s situation, university’s situation. Chinese law on paper, in the classroom, right?
W: Yeah, ’cause it’s very different in the cities. Right?
G: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When I told him what [was] happening; very, very strange, you cannot believe that it’s happening.
So he understands China’s society, about China’s people’s life.
W: Especially in the rural areas.
G: Yeah. Even, you know, when we’re sitting together, him and me and his friends who are officials or university leaders, if they tell him some information that is not true, I will expose them. I just tell him that is not.
W: Right.
G: Yeah. So the officials, if they saw us sitting there, they were very careful to tell some information to him.
W: Right, because you would correct them?
G: Yes.
The Catholic University of America’s Center for Human Rights has published a documentary on the United Nations Universal Declaration on Human Rights. The documentary features world-class human rights experts from former state department officials to ambassadors and human rights activists. It can be found on our website at humanrights.catholic.edu.