Will Deatherage: The Center for Human Rights at the Catholic University of America has recently published an op ed by Chen Guangcheng commemorating the anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre. To view this article, check the link in the description or go to humanrights.catholic.edu.
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Barefoot Lawyer Reports on China. My name is Will Deatherage, the producer, and joining me as always, is Chen Guang Cheng.
Chen Guangcheng: Hello everyone. I’m glad to see you here again. Thank you, Will.
W: Yeah, of course. And today we are commemorating the anniversary of a very significant event in the history of democracy in China. Guangcheng, could you explain what that is?
G: Yeah, yeah. Today we will talk about the Tiananmen massacre. Since 1989, you know, 36 years have passed.
W: 36, wow.
G: Yeah. So unfortunately, the CCP still controls power in mainland China and uses power to oppress the people who call for democracy and a constitutional government. After Tiananmen Square, a lot of people were exiled. And in mainland China, you know, the CCP has never stopped using violence and cruelty to persecute the people in mainland China.
W: Right.
G: For the foreign countries, the CCP spends a lot of money to infiltrate democratic nations, even the US. So I think now the free world should stand with Chinese people to punish the CCP. Yeah.
W: So Guangcheng, after Tiananmen Square, which was in 1989, as you said, was there a hope that people would continue rising against the Communist Party? Like, what was the feeling like in China around that time?
G: At that time I was living in rural China, right?
W: Okay.
G: All my neighbors, they [talked] about this. Sometimes they debated a lot, and more people support the students in Beijing. Yeah. They think the CCP have a lot of corruption.
W: Okay.
G: The CCP’s bureaucracy is very inefficient. But if you bribe them, if you give them money, they will do their job.
W: So why do you think the idea of democracy in China didn’t get more popular? Like, what happened to cause the downfall of the democratic movement in China?
G: Now a lot of people understand that democracy, the constitutional government will resolve the problem. But at that time, because the CCP used education, you know, the CCP controls every school, right? They use the school to brainwash the education [system].
From [the] beginning, the CCP just let them know “Communism is the best system, the democratic system looks good, but in fact [it’s] not good.” But we never tell them, you know, the freedom of speech and the freedom of the media. So at that time, the people didn’t understand the multi-party system is very good. Yeah, it’s a good thing. But they understand that justice is firstly important for the society and for the people’s life, right?
So this is why they think that [for] young people [to] protest, to ask [for] change, that is good.
W: Guangcheng, what happened to the protesters at Tiananmen Square? They were students in 1989. How old do you think they would be right now?
G: At that time, the students [were] usually 19 years old, 20 years old, like that. Now, you know, 36 years have passed. All the people [are] almost 60 years old.
W: Yeah, yeah.
G: Some leaders think it’s better; they tried to talk with students like Zhao Ziyang, but later, you know, Li Peng and Deng Xiaoping, they used the military to kill a lot of people in Beijing.
W: And that was the day of the massacre, right?
G: Yeah, the massacre, yeah. Usually we call it June 4th, but in fact that happened [at midnight] on June 3. From midnight [on], the CCP used tanks and different guns to kill a lot of people.
W: Yeah. So what happened to a lot of the protesters who were there? You mentioned some of them were exiled. What happened to a lot of the students?
G: After that, you know, the CCP tried to arrest the students who joined the movement, and so the people had to escape very quick. Some people [went] north to Russia, and Russia found them and sent them back.
W: Oh, wow.
G: Yeah. And I remember that person. His name is Zhang Boli. So Russia [didn’t] want to destroy the relationship with the CCP and send him back. And another one, you know, Fang Zheng. Fang Zheng in Tiananmen Square, the tank tried to kill one person. You know, she is a student too.
Fang Zheng stood by the street and he [was] running very quick and pushed the girl, but the tank hit him and cut his legs out.
W: Wow.
G: So after that, his life [was] very difficult; no money, he could not find a job. And the CCP just gave [him] a little money to buy food and threatened him: “If you don’t listen to us, we will stop [giving] you the money to buy the food.
W: Right.
G: You know, after several years, because of the pressure from international [governments], the CCP had to let him come here.
W: To America?
G: Yeah, to America. Now he lives in California.
W: Oh, wow. Okay.
G: Yeah. So of course the CCP put a lot of students in prison.
W: Right.
G: And the CCP sentenced them [to] different years. Some went four years, some went seven years, like that.
After they were released, a lot of them migrated to Western countries. So now, you know, every year, before the June 4th anniversary, they plan to do an event to try to make the whole world remember the June 4th massacre.
Of course, people just want to make the country better, just want to get justice and democracy like that. So the CCP killed them.
W: Do you think something like that could happen again in modern China?
G: I think the CCP is very worried that will happen again. This is why the CCP created the Internet surveillance system with facial recognition and movement recognition to track the people. So if some people want to protest, the CCP will order the police very [quickly] to stop them. If enough people protest, it will be difficult to stop them.
So the CCP wants to stop the protest from even starting.
W: Do you think that today, you know, if enough people did gather like that, that it would be possible to have another protest as big as Tiananmen Square? Or is the CCP too powerful at this point for that to happen again?
G: I think two reasons are very important. One is: if there are enough people to do a protest, for example, in Tiananmen Square, now the Chinese people, I think they will think [about] how to control the media, try to control the CCP’s mouthpiece and use them.
Another thing is about the democratic nations. You know, if the democratic nations give enough pressure, the CCP will think, if they kill the people again, maybe the Western country will join hands to fight back.
W: Yeah. So you’re saying that if the protesters can find a way to use the CCP’s own media, and Western countries put enough pressure on the CCP to stop killing the protesters, then something like Tiananmen Square could happen again. Is that right, Guangcheng?
G: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think now the people in mainland China must be more unhappy than 1989.
W: Yeah. Well, let’s hope that it causes an uprising or a revolution very soon, right Guangcheng?
G: Yes. I hope that, if the people understand how to use social media, the new technology, to manage the protest, I think that will be happening.
W: Yeah. Hopefully when it happens, we’ll be able to report on it, right Guangcheng?
G: Yes, yes, we will report that, and we will push the Western countries [to] stand with the Chinese people.
W: Absolutely. Well, thank you guys very much for listening to another episode of the Barefoot Lawyer Reports on China. And thank you as always, Guangcheng, for your commentary.
G: Yeah, thank you, Will. Thank you everyone. See you next time.
W: The Catholic University of America’s Center for Human Rights has published a documentary on the United Nations Universal Declaration on Human Rights. The documentary features world class human rights experts from former State Department officials to ambassadors and human rights activists. It can be found on our website at humanrights.catholic.edu.